msmobiles.com - interview with John Starkwether from Microsoft

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interview with John Starkwether from Microsoft - at 3GSM World Congress 2005

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This interview was carried out on February 14, 2005, in Cannes, France - during 3GSM World Congress 2005 - in hotel Carlton, where Microsoft´s meeting rooms were located.

Here is photo of John Starkwether that we took directly after interview:

John Starkwether was also a moderator and speaker of the main Microsoft press conference at 3GSM World Congress 2005:

The interview follows.

* * * * *

msmobiles.com: could you introduce what you are doing in Microsoft?

John Starkwether: sure, my name is John Starkwether, I am a Product Manager in Mobiled and Embedded Devices Divsion. I work on a number of different things, kind of an interface with product planning, with branding and marketing teams, and I just wanna to talk, to give you quick overview on what we announced at 3GSM and I wanna to take us a bit back - we have phones available for 2 years starting with just a couple of manufacturers and today it is 40 device makers shipping Windows Mobile producs with 67 mobile operators in 48 countries - so alot of growth in a short amount of time, which you are very familiar with...

msmobiles.com: no, you can assume that I am not familiar, because it is for people who will be reading it.

John Starkwether: so a couple of announcements that we made today. The first is is expansion of our partnerships: we announced parternership with Flextronics

msmobiles.com: OK

John Starkwether: one of the world´s largest contract manufacturers of mobile phones and ODM, they announced Windows Mobile smartphone reference platform called "Peabody", that will really bring, ... it´s reall about bringing device costs down, so low cost, high volume...

msmobiles.com: so it is reference platform or what is it?

John Starkwether: It´s essentially a Windows Mobile smartphone. While they call it a smartphone or ODM platform because Flextronics goes direct to ODMs. So I can go and show you this device, it´s over in our Innovation Studio over here, I don´t know if you have seen it...

msmobiles.com: no...

John Starkwether: ... and what´s there is a fully functining smartphone, if an ODM such as Audiovox or Motorola, whoever want to put their label on it, they can do it. However as you know... if you take a look at that [shows Audiovox STM 5600 and Orange SPV C500] this is all Typhoon from HTC, right? ... and they´ve put different plastics and different keys on it, it´s the same..

msmobiles.com: why should big brands companies like Motorola or Samsung take this Flextronics platform?

John Starkwether: oh, many big name OEMs actually work with Flextronics today - Siemens, Sony Ericsson, Motorola, they all work with Flextronics,...

msmobiles.com: but they have their own designs, they don´t take Flextronics designs!

John Starkwether: oh, yes and no, I would say there are some, that would bring their own designs and Flextronics would build it, but more and more the ODMs are designing phones that then intern an OEM would go and customize.

msmobiles.com: excuse me, I am a bit confused, I didn´t get it because of all the noises... so you are responsible for what in Microsoft ?

John Starkwether: I work in ... marketing and I work between product planning and actual launching of devices, go to markets for...

msmobiles.com: so you are working with operators or with hardware manufacturers ...?

John Starkwether: a little of both, I am one of generalists, if you wanna to dive into particular area, I can give you more specific things on them. To Flextronics - we can go and see it - it´ll be device that will be sold to an OEM and OEM will customize it. The reason I showed you these HTC devices [shows SDA, SDA Music and Audiovox STM 5600] as you can the underlying guts of all these 3 phones are exactly the same, but it´s external what you actually see...

msmobiles.com: so it will be smartphone, not Pocket PC, this Flextronics?

John Starkwether: that what they announced today will be smartphone but they also announced commitment to build a range of Windows Mobile devices.

msmobiles.com: maybe I could ask some questions... so Windows Mobile code name "Magneto" when it will be released?

John Starkwether: we are not announcing at this time...

msmobiles.com: this year or next year?

John Starkwether: can´t give you definitive date.

msmobiles.com: this situation is unclear for people who would like to buy and you know, what about compatibility? Will it be backwards compatible?

John Starkwether: to quote you, one of the reasons, that we don´t comment on unnannounced product is that we don´t create more confusion for people who want to buy things. So, that´s we didn´t go on the record to talk about Magneto. What I can tell you there will be many interesting developments in Magneto based upon things, that customers, whether those would be end users or enterprises.

msmobiles.com: is it in platform or in operating system?

John Starkwether: I don´t understand. What´s the question?

msmobiles.com: is it in platform these changes, improvemetns, because you have said that Magneto will bring many improvements.

John Starkwether: yes.

msmobiles.com: ... and you mean in platform, for example in those applications like Outlook ...

John Starkwether: we consider Windows Mobile to be a platform, any changes that we would make in Magneto would be a changes to the platform. Does it make sense?

msmobiles.com: so as a whole platform.. but the problem is that these existing applications in Windows Mobile 2003... people have impression that there are no further developments.. second edition, yes, the latest version of windows Mobile is Second Edition 2003...?

John Starkwether: so, it´s interesting the way the Windows Mobile is developed. We do major releases such as Windows Mobile 2002, you had 2003, 2003 Second Edition, in between those major releases we also send out updated software to any of our OEMs delivering phones. So for example some of the new Typhoons...

msmobiles.com: the Audiovox....

John Starkwether: so, the Audiovox here, it´s exactly like Orange SPV C500 in UK, this one, because it came out a little bit later, actually has Windows Media Player Mobile 10.

msmobiles.com: ... and people are angry now that not everybody has them

John Starkwether: so that goes back to us, we on a pretty regular basis will update software based upon what operator will say "I need that little minor adjustment" and an OEM will say "we have somebody looking for this" and we constantly do updates, so we do those things on a fairly regular basis and then we´ll do a complete major update that will incorporate all of those updates that happen on a regular basis as well as many additional things.

msmobiles.com: so you are blaming it, so to say, on Orange, that there is no Windows Media player 10?

John Starkwether: no! I am not blaming anything at all. I am just saying as we move...

msmobiles.com: because from the customer point of view. You know, customers... I was in that session, have you seen that session in the moring with Peter Knook?

John Starkwether: yep!

msmobiles.com: .. and they were talking about user experience - that it is important... and users have now experience that they cannot get the latest version of Windows Media player, because when they have PC they can download it from Internet but in this case [points to Windows Mobie phones that lie on the table] I have heard that it is so integrated that it cannot be downloaded.

John Starkwether: it would be absolutely incorrect to blame or to make any kind of statement that operator pulls it back. The point that I am making is that we continue to update that software and the operator will take the latest software and put it on the device that they are shipping at that time.

msmobiles.com: it´s up to operator?

John Starkwether: at the time that they ship the device, when they, Orange, or any other oprator decides to ship another version of that phone, or update the software for whatever reason they from the business perspective, then that they have a chocicee to include those newer things. Now, once a new, let´s say a major, software upgrade is made available, at that point OEMs will be working on the latest software. OEMs want to use latest software and so do the operators. It just depends on where their device is launched in the cycle of new software.

msmobiles.com: but is Microsoft equally accessible to all manufacturers?

John Starkwether: absoutely.

msmobiles.com: ... because I have heard rumors, that HTC has special treatment and some other manfucaturers are getting with delay updates. It´s not correct?

John Starkwether: no, we work with all our OEMs, with provide them with updates, there is process that I explained, there are updates available regularly, all can receive them

msmobiles.com: at the same time?

John Starkwether: yeah, I can´t speak to every example, because I don´t know if one email was sent before the other, but yes, as a rule , as our approach is to provide all our OEMs with the software.

msmobiles.com: there is one hardware manufacturer and I know one subcontractor from this hardware manufacturer, doing some Windows Mobile stuff, and they got from that hardware manufacturer impression and complains about Microsoft, that Microsoft is giving priority to HTC and they have some upgrades with softare problems , that they get patches later, so you say it´s not correct?

John Starkwether: we work with our OEMs to provide regular updates to our software. We work directly...

msmobiles.com: so you treat equal?

John Starkwether: we work directly with our OEMs, if they are going to launch a new device, to see that they have support from us, we´re available to answer questions, help with fixes, particular challenges that they have while developing the device. The platform is there for everyone. They start to give us some custom development, we are availble. We have special teams of people that all they do is enganging with OEMs.

msmobiles.com: So you have some mechanism to prevent such situation, that one company, one hardware manufacturer will think that HTC has some patch, update, and they are Microsoft to get it and Microsoft is not responding?

John Starkwether: I wouldn´t say anything different to what I have already said. It would be similar to... I am glad to talk with you but I was talking to 3 other people today, does it make you 3rd in line, no you are just important as anybody else...

msmobiles.com: I am not considering myself important, but...

John Starkwether: no, no

msmobiles.com: ... I have specific interests and my interests are that when you are spreading this Windows Mobile to hardware manufacturers and operators, that they don´t get impression that Microsoft is behaving unfairly.

John Starkwether: and we have the same desire and concern that we do it that way

msmobiles.com: OK

John Starkwether: when you have 40 device maker partners and we think that number will continue to grow, to increase, it´s absouletely important that you treat them all equal. That is something as a company, Microsoft, that we have been doing for a number of years and we continue to do with Windows Mobile platform.

msmobiles.com: OK, so this Flextronics new platform, will it not damage business of HTC for example because they have already some?

John Starkwether: no, why would it? We work with a lot of ODMs, we work with HTC, Compal, MiTAC, many many others, we work with lots of ODMs. They all have a different strategies and yes, everybody competes.

msmobiles.com: this Flextronics platform, is it directed only at hardware manufacturers, OEMs or is it also at operators?

John Starkwether: Flextronics sells, manufactures devices for OEMs. Flextronics, it is not their strategy to go direct to operators and that´s where we see some variance, you know the HTC, they go directly to OEMs, but they´ve been very succesful going directly to operators, so each of them have their different approaches: in any competitive market different companies find different niches, that fit their customer needs.

msmobiles.com: what is your comment, because last year I was chatting with vice president of Motorola - Tatelman, who is the best person for Microsoft stuff - and he was showing me this gadget [points to Motorola MPx that lies on the table] last year and we have one year and it´s not in shops!?

John Starkwether: yes, it is! This is in shops.

msmobiles.com: no. Not in EU not in USA.

John Starkwether: Not in US, you can find it in Asia and there is actually, there is actually an announcement that was made last week, where a distributor in UK, I believe Dangaard and DAT group they are doing distribution of this...

msmobiles.com: yeah, I think I have seen it... but the problem is all these are announcements but availability is another thing.

John Starkwether: so this device here [points to Motorola MPx] is very much a productivity device , very much kind-of enterprise user device, so that´s why Dangaard and DAT are actually so if you have still questions I would talk to them directly.

msmobiles.com: what´s about "benc" for example?

John Starkwether: it´s "ben-Queue"

msmobiles.com: "ben-Queue", yeah

John Starkwether: another great OEM partner that has done some customization on our platform and has a good device here [points to BenQ P50 that lies on the table] I could send you additional details on them. The announced .. it as at CES and a lot of interest in that.

msmobiles.com: but still commercial availability is still far away.

John Starkwether: you know, I am not sure, we got to follow with you.

msmobiles.com: the problem is that you Microsoft people have these devices for playing, but the point is that customers are seeing it in news stories and they want to buy it....

John Starkwether: it´s because great people like you are writing about this stuff so early...

msmobiles.com: yeah, but...

John Starkwether: so let´s take a look - so there are lots of devices that are coming down the road, if you wanna take a look just a the T-Mobile´s line-up, just in Germany alone, they do these devices, you´ve seen MDA Compact and they have this as well, this [points to T-Mobile MDA III] is the third generation...

msmobiles.com: yeah, it´s big

John Starkwether:... they also announced, last week and half ago, the MDA IV, which is first Windows Mobile 3G device, it´s UMTS, Wi-Fi and Bluetooth, which is actually, I think that would be interesting, which is actually the industry´s first UMST post-Wi-Fi device and we actually have this tonight, if you haven´t hold one, seen one, ...

msmobiles.com: you mean MDA IV?

John Starkwether: we´ll have it tonight at the press conference. And they have the same underlying platform from HTC, they do the SDA and they do SDA Music, they did a lot of customization in a UI ... you have seen these devices.

msmobiles.com: I understand that you canot say everything, but the problem is now,... I think problem of Microsoft .. because Nokia and Samsung they are now very strongly, as differentation, pushing 3G, and I have impression that Microsoft is not supporting 3G...

John Starkwether: [in offended tone] Absoutely are!

msmobiles.com: .. no! But in Windows Mobile, videotelephony is not a part of Windows Mobile!

John Starkwether: so, our partners are.. you see HTC doing it, and they did it on Windows Mobile, so...

msmobiles.com: but they have their own application!

John Starkwether: yeah, of course all of our partners will do some level of customization - some will do more, some will do less

msmobiles.com: but this 3G stuff should be in the operating system, this is like in Symbian case for example - they are putting a lot of stuff into operating system - into platform and on your part, you are asking HTC to make it, for examle this videotelephony component.

John Starkwether: you will continue to see us support a wide range of connectivity options, 3G will just be one of several, we´ve been supporting other high-speed networks - we have a lot of [CDMA] EVDO devices, that are available today, you´ll see UMTS devices, but you won´t see just more of the same, you will see some further innovations both from us and from our hardware partners.

msmobiles.com: OK, and what´s your, I mean your as Microsoft, approach to voice over IP? Will you offer something like Skype on yourself, or you are just leaving it?

John Starkwether: there´s actually announcement made today by Skype and i-mate on them including Skype in their... we think that enabled voice over IP technologies or services over IP ... are wonderful things that Windows Mobile enables natively, to add those layers of different functionality.

msmobiles.com: but not Voice over IP!

John Starkwether: you´ll see us as a company doing more and more in this space based upon what our OEMs are telling us that their customers want, and specificially what the operators feel, that they need for their messengers.

msmobiles.com: but for example MSN messenger for PC already has some voice capabilities!

John Starkwether: sure, you´ll see, ...

msmobiles.com: you mean messenger for Windows Mobile?

John Starkwether: yeah, we have nothing to announce at this time, but you´ll see more and more. I would encourage you to got out at innovation studio there...

msmobiles.com: you mean these guys standing here?

John Starkwether: yeah, there is a group, there are several people from Live Communication Server team and they are actually showing an early look of a mobile IM client for Windows Mobile devices

msmobiles.com: with voice over IP?

John Starkwether: it´s specific to IM, it´s really a kind of secure, enterprise, instant messaging

msmobiles.com: OK

John Starkwether: you go and take a look at that.. what you´ll see from Microsoft over next year is that there will be more and more things enabled

msmobiles.com: so there is voice component in it?

John Starkwether: I don´t think that they are talking about voice at that point. You have to stay tuned over the course of the next while to see different things to happen there [i.e. Live Communications Server - client for it for Windows Mobile] but we have nothing to announce at this time.

msmobiles.com: it´s always the same story, that you have nothing to announce!

John Starkwether: you know, back to your point though, you have to run a careful line here, that ODMs can develop their devices, that we don´t create artificial demand on the market, so that we don´t want to frustrate customers. We have been shipping products a lot of time. There is a way of doing it right and there is a way of doing it where everyone fails. And when we fail, then our ODMs fail and we absolutely don´t want that kind of thing.

msmobiles.com: Have you heard this keynote session today in the morning?

John Starkwether: yeah, I was there, in fact I had to leave right before your question...

msmobiles.com: you have heard my question? no!

John Starkwether: [laughs] ha,ha, yeah ... I have heard it directed to Nokia or something like that.

msmobiles.com: yes, because I wanted to convince them to start using Windows Mobile, but it´s another story...

John Starkwether: did you hear about 2 announcements that Microsoft made with Nokia today?

msmobiles.com: no, please mention them!

John Starkwether: so these morning, at press conference ... these were simple licensing deals that we made with many other companies. They were licensing for the protocol to synchronize...

msmobiles.com: Exchange?

John Starkwether: ... to synchronize with Exchange and a seperate licensing deal for Windows Media audio, audio only and some of the DRM in Windows Media.

msmobiles.com: but they are also already licesning Real player, so now they will be embedding also Windows Media?

John Starkwether: they´ll have the codecs

msmobiles.com: but this is not PlaysForSure, this is not this...

John Starkwether: no, no, no. This is Windows Media audio codec, this is some of the DRM technologies...

msmobiles.com: without DRM?

John Starkwether: Windows Media DRM.

msmobiles.com: so you are licensing DRM also?

John Starkwether: yes.

msmobiles.com: so PlaysForSure?

John Starkwether: no.

msmobiles.com: it´s different?

John Starkwether: PlaysForSure actually encompasses a little bit more.

msmobiles.com: OK.

John Starkwether: OK, so 2 simple licensing deals. The other thing that we announced today is the "Connected Services Framework".. so if you think about all these devices they sit out, you know, outside of the operator´s network, they do lots of different things, the Connected Services Framework actually ties in the backend of the operator´s network, we´ve taken a number of our different server technologies, BizTalk is an important one...

msmobiles.com: is it location oriented also?

John Starkwether: we will get to that. So the technology actually will take legacy systems at the operators network as well as some new systems and ties them together with an easy management layer and it also enables deployment of these services, location based services are very hot right now, things like hosting exchange got a lot of demand from customers

msmobiles.com: can the operator for example initiate some software update from the server side, from the side of an operator to the customers?

John Starkwether: yes... and additionally we released results of the study that we worked on with Edge Strategies and it was looking at an impact of ARPU on margins. This survey talks about smart devices drive...

msmobiles.com: marketing talk

John Starkwether: .. let me finish, the ARPU for smart devices goes up, the study actually shows that all smart devices are raising the ARPU...

msmobiles.com: but Microsoft are raising better?

John Starkwether: by a percentage, a look at margins, once again Microsoft gives advantage ... so to your question or to your kind-of comment, about Microsoft, you know, being better also you see in materials that several operators are go on the record and validate results of these studies, so T-Mobile in Germany actually has seen 50% increase in data traffic and their official comment is, and associated revenues with Windows Mobile devices over competing smart devices

msmobiles.com: but do they have some independent press release? do they have some...

John Starkwether: it´s actually in our press release?

msmobiles.com: in your press release?

John Starkwether: yes, so let it be clear, that is an apples to apples comparison. That is Windows Mobile comparison, all other devices and another one.

msmobiles.com: and Symbian?

John Starkwether: ...versus all the competing devices and they run all the comparisons.

msmobiles.com: OK, and coming back to this Flextronics deal, I have noticed there mention of EDGE. Why to mention there? Is there additional support for EDGE?

John Starkwether: no, the device runs GSM, GPRS, EDGE, device with Bluetooth, integrated camera, the phones are 100 grams

msmobiles.com: so there is no special component from Microsoft to handle EDGE? It was already handled by system?

John Starkwether: ehm, not sure of actual technical details, I could get those to you if you are interested. I know you get questions what we handle on the data side versus others - a lot of our OEMs are doing EDGE.

msmobiles.com: because it is mentioned as kind of achievement so to say...

John Starkwether: it´s part of the platform

msmobiles.com: and also this platform was developed by Flextroncis - the hardware platform?

John Starkwether: they developed the handset that uses the TI single core processor, we´ve got all the details on that...

msmobiles.com: so Microsoft is not involved in hardware issues?

John Starkwether: so let me explain, this goes back to an early question, we provide platform back to OEMs and if they chose, we will work with them on some customization. So Flextronics builds their hardware, their boards, all of those other things ...

msmobiles.com: so you provide software platform or hardware platform?

John Starkwether: software.

msmobiles.com: software, so you are not involved in these hardware design issues?

John Starkwether: that would be oversimplistic to just say "no". The hardware interfaces with software and so inherently, Flextronics does custom software work so they integrate the hardware and the software and in turn we end up answering questions and providing technical assistance, sometimes with some partners, the developers [of Microsoft] actually helping to develop things [at partners] if that situation arises. So you end up doing a little bit of both. Does it make sense?

msmobiles.com: yes!

John Starkwether: We´re software company, that tackle hardware but we end up doing integration work.

msmobiles.com: so what these problems with Microsoft accepting standards, what can you say about it?

John Starkwether: problem? I don´t follow you.

msmobiles.com: so, let´s say there is Microsoft and the rest of the world, and the rest of the world claims that ther are some standards for mobility like OMA, and they have MMS or whatever, I don´t know, Java maybe even, or this OMA DRM or whatever and they are whining [laughs], so to say, that Microsoft is not following.

John Starkwether: as you know...

msmobiles.com: and operator is buying, deciding on some devices, and what would you say to such operator, why are you not embedding those standards in your devices and why it is good for the operator?

John Starkwether: what we say to operators is: we are deeply involved in all the major standard bodies...

msmobiles.com: but you are not implementing them!

John Starkwether: we are deeply involved in all the major standard bodies, and based upon their needs we will provide the software that is necessary for their customers. Whether we do it natively whether we work with partners - we provide it! ... but as you know, you have been around this industry a long time, that standards is not always everybody coming together and it works for everybody, it is very much competitive process. So we are involved and just like everyone else is, to see that standards issue worked out for good of all but also everyone is pushing in a lot of ways for a good for them. So you know we are very actively involved in CTIA, in GSMA, and in OMA and involved in all those different organizations and I would say that we take very active role and we are good partner to the industry.

msmobiles.com: so even if you don´t implement them directly you offer the operators possibility to deliver those OMA components through partners?

John Starkwether: absolutely. There isn´t always the need to reinvent the wheel.

msmobiles.com: let´s talk about another issue. So we have 21st century now and there are some things that nobody would foreseen earlier and for example have you read such book "Cluetrain Manifesto"?

John Starkwether: aha, many years ago.

msmobiles.com: ... and do you know Robert Scoble?

John Starkwether: from hearing ...

msmobiles.com: I have interviewed him by phone! ... so what would you say to people who only now after seeing Scoble are saying that Microsoft has human face but previously it was only "evil evil evil" .. because Windows Mobile blog, so to day, has been created by Robert Levy, and James Pratt and developers are putting some stuff there but there is no such means of communication between Windows Mobile division and the mass users so to say in this new media?

John Starkwether: I don´t think that I understand your question.

msmobiles.com: so you haven´t read the "Cluetrain Manifesto" ?

John Starkwether: I have. The number of years ago. I am trying to understand what the question is that you are asking me.

msmobiles.com: general idea!

John Starkwether: you are talking about communication between our division and...

msmobiles.com: people!

John Starkwether: and people. I think we communicate all the time. We are communicating right now, aren´t we?

msmobiles.com: no, no, you don´t understand, it´s not about PR and marketing,

John Starkwether: no, I understand...

msmobiles.com: .. it´s these people like Scoble and there are in other divisions of Microsoft such bloggers and they are somehow conveying the ... giving the face to this particular Microsoft product.. and in case of Windows Mobile I know that it is very very small and almost nothing.

John Starkwether: I think that what you are talking about is a philosophy of communication?

msmobiles.com: yes, conversations?

John Starkwether: yeah, the idea that markets are converstations and they are in many ways, I think what you find in our company is that we have converstations on different levels with different types of people

msmobiles.com: newsgroups! I know that you have Microsoft newsgroups

John Starkwether: yeah, it may not be the level that you always want or someone else always want but it is not a simple one on one communication in a company or other kind of organization where you have many many partners, who play into what that ultimate product would be. It would be wrong of our division to go out and talk about a product from Samsung without Samsung´s permission and it wouldn´t be OK for Samsung to talk about a product per se if it would be sold to a particular operator, and if it would be OK to talk about it if there would be 5 other 3rd parties who had contributed to that development... you see what I am saying, it is not that simple as "Cluetrain Manifesto" philosophy would say that it would be.

msmobiles.com: OK, this is also the problem of the whole situation with Microsoft mobile devices, that in case of Nokia or in case of Palm the situation looks much simpler and here we have these manufacturers, operators, Micorsoft and really big confusion all over the place and dont´ you think that, we have 21st cenutry, so some managers from Windows Mobile should create blogs and like post not about hardware but post about software issues? I don´t know...

John Starkwether: there are people, we can send you a couple of links...

msmobiles.com: but these are developers! the guys who are posting... Scoble is not developer. He admitted himself that he doesnt´ know what is C++ but the point is not to communicate stuff to developers because developers are only tiny numbers. I was at Tech*Ed, I will probably go to the next one. The point is however that you don´t want to sell ten phones to developers, you want to sell millions of phones to massive customers and you dont´ have such blogs I think.

John Starkwether: are you saying that to sell the millions of phones to customers, all we need to do is three blogs?

msmobiles.com: [laughs] it would help.

John Starkwether: are you sure? are there millions of people reading those particular blogs? frankly I would love to work... or to have a world I would say, in which we would communicate that way, however I think we all understand that there are lots lots of interests and we want to have very open dialogue and we welcome that feedback and there are feedback mechanisms for people to provide it

msmobiles.com: speaking of feedback, good that you mentioned it. I have noticed that regarding this .NET Compact Framework and those development issues this Windows Mobile has been added to the feedback loop so to say. So developers can put.. for example that some method is not working...

John Starkwether: yeah

msmobiles.com: but there is no such feedback regarding platform itself.

John Starkwether: I would encourage you that if you have feedback or others have feedback to use those channels whatever they would be.

msmobiles.com: but these are for developers only!

John Starkwether: I think you will end up...

msmobiles.com: to consumers?

John Starkwether: there are some consumer feedback mechanisms, if you go to WindowsMarketPlace.com which is actually any kind of product that has to do with PC or with one of our devices, you´ll see devices even from our competitors.

msmobiles.com: what is feedback? that what I mean is feedback...

John Starkwether: that´s a philosophical question [laughs]

msmobiles.com: something... let me answer my idea

John Starkwether: OK [laughs]

msmobiles.com: because feedback is not that you go to a website, enter some form and click submit. Feedback is not that you go to a website, enter some form, click submit and it appears in the database, and people are evaluating this, and they are giving for example "oh, I agree" and submit, and value, the weight of this problem is raising so to say. This is not there.

John Starkwether: go back to what I said: there´s lots of ways of providing feedback

msmobiles.com: but you don´t have such mechanism?

John Starkwether: frankly, actually I think we do. I am looking at them.

msmobiles.com: you have but only for developers...

John Starkwether: I think I am looking at them.

msmobiles.com: no, no, I don´t believe it. I am not talking about people who are friendly to Microsoft, there are some lists, I know Paul O´Brien for example, they have list of particular bugs in particular areas. That what I was meaning is from Microsoft, something that has weight of Microsoft, and Microsoft is saying "OK, we see it, we´re working on it, and in Magneto, or whatever in future we consider it for change" because now impression is that some issues are totally "next release, next release, next release". You mentioned, that in 2002 was the first smartphone - in UK and in 2002 simple Nokia phones had time-controlled profiles, so if 17:00 o´clock is passed, you go home and it´s another profile, and we have 2005 and you still don´t have it in platform!

John Starkwether: so we could probably, if you want it, take of the whiteboard, we could do the list of things that we have done from the beginning , they haven´t done it, that´s just...

msmobiles.com: no, no, let´s say there is Ed Suwanjindar, Peter Knook and some people, you know, are meeting in a room, and they are saying let´s fix this, let´s do this, ...

John Starkwether: but do you know where the feedback comes from? how do we decide what goes into next version of the product?

msmobiles.com: no, tell me, I don´t know.

John Starkwether: OK, there several different specific mechanisms, but it comes directly from customers, customers into OEMs, customers into the operators, ... we have regular forms with those people, that they come in and they say that feedback directly if there is particular escalation issue something going on with their customers... we even do forms, we´ve done this for years on Windows CE and Windows Mobile sides collectively. We will bring in different OEMs and different people that are involved in the process and have them vote, have them vote on features, we actually give them wireless voting terminals, layout of thoese things that we do and we ask them to vote on that.

msmobiles.com: so you say HTC, Motorola and such people?

John Starkwether: HTC, Motorola, could be the people that do board support packages, all variety of things, all of the thigns that they are hearing from their customers that they want to go in. It´s not what those votes come out is exactly what we do, we use that as a really strong feedback, so that the product that we provide is what customers are wanting.

msmobiles.com: OK.

John Starkwether: if we were to open up and say "OK world, send us your feedback", we would have the challange of making sure we coudl use that feedback but additionally it puts us into possition of talking directly to Motorola´s customers, to T-Mobile´s customers.

msmobiles.com: OK, this is solution.

John Starkwether: In the end, T-Mobile´s customer - that´s theirtheir customer. So it makes sense for T-Mobile to say "this is what our customers are telling us, Microsoft!".

msmobiles.com: last question, OK? very last question: I have impression that this Windows Mobile and Embedded division, it´s the name? ... that people are treating it like temporary stop in the career at Microsoft, that it is not taken seriously at Microsoft?

John Starkwether: really?

msmobiles.com: yeah, Derek Brown for example, he moved out of Windows Mobile division.

John Starkwether: he works in other division in Microsoft.

msmobiles.com: yes, but....

John Starkwether: there are a number of people, and you mentioned one, great poeople, that have moved to other places in Microsoft which is very normal ... flow of people

msmobiles.com: so it´s nothing bad?

John Starkwether: no, in fact I would say that more than ever this division is more integrated throughout Microsoft, there is better integration with Exchange, you see things coming, better integration with other server products, targeted at wider set of customers

msmobiles.com: is it serious?

John Starkwether: absolutely serious. We had the best year ever!

msmobiles.com: but you are losing money still!

John Starkwether: look at our financials, we can give you data on our financials and we are doing extremely well, we had best year and this will be the best year ever.

msmobiles.com: you are not making profit.

John Starkwether: you´ve seen that these loses have gone down dramatically, we are very much on track for our plan.

msmobiles.com: so profit?

John Starkwether: go back, go back 2 years ago! we had single device maker and the single operator partner. Now we have 40 device maker partners, 67 mobile operators, all the major countries across the world. You see what´s happening. Take a look at Pocket PC. You´ve been looking at that for years...

msmobiles.com: yeah

John Starkwether: .. we began with 3 OEMs and no market share. Everybody thought putting a color screen on the device is a ridiculous idea.

msmobiles.com: so this rotation is standard?

John Starkwether: last year, last fall, Gartner finally validated the fact that we had surpassed Palm, so that´s a 4 year period, and I think we are on the same growth path in phones. It´s a much bigger market and much bigger opportunity [than just PDA market].

msmobiles.com: so this rotation in Windows Mobile division is nothing wrong you say and you also treat it as temporary, this Windows Mobile division ...

John Starkwether: no

msmobiles.com: .. and you will move to some other stuff.

John Starkwether: I don´t say that it´s temporary at all. I think we are better aligned that we have been in the past. We have embedded and mobile development happening side by side to reduce redundancies. We brought new products to life. Portable Media Center came this last year. Things are going on in automotive group. There are wonderful things going on.

msmobiles.com: thank you very much.