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dicussions about Microsoft Smartphone and Pocket PC phone
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msmobiles.com_robot
Joined: 23 Mar 2004
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mirekluza
Joined: 25 Nov 2008
Posts: 12
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 Posted: Wed Dec 03, 2008 8:27 pm Post subject: |
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Well, in my opinion it is not completely correct to compare Iphone with other smartphones because of the target group...
People who buy Iphone are in most cases not people who have ever wanted a smartphone... Without Iphone most of them would not buy a smartphone... (or maybe - at least in Europe - a Nokia smartphone - but *not* because being a smartphone, but because having a new better camera with <any_number> Megapixels etc.)
WM is mostly bought by people who want smartphone. Logically this group is more limited... I like WM more (freedom, applications, not being interested in finger based GUI), but for most of people the simple, user friendly and closed phone is better... Most of people are not interested in running applications on their phones (apart from easily downloadable games).
I hope that WM will not be dumbed down to Iphone level... Maybe it would become more popular among masses, but I guess there would be a price for real smartphone users. And anyway: if I wanted an Iphone, I would buy rather it (and not some kind of late copy hoping to be "as good as Iphone"...).
Mirek |
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kdarling
Joined: 31 May 2007
Posts: 39
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| Posted: Wed Dec 03, 2008 11:02 pm Post subject: |
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The calculations are inflated by the fact that Apple counts shipped phones as "sold".
As the article mentioned, 2 million out of the 7 million iPhones counted, were simply put into inventory pipelines. |
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amb9800
Joined: 02 Aug 2008
Posts: 92
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| Posted: Thu Dec 04, 2008 5:22 am Post subject: |
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| mirekluza wrote: | | WM is mostly bought by people who want smartphone. Logically this group is more limited... I like WM more (freedom, applications, not being interested in finger based GUI), but for most of people the simple, user friendly and closed phone is better... Most of people are not interested in running applications on their phones (apart from easily downloadable games). |
That used to be the case when the iPhone was first released. Windows Mobile had its huge collection of third-party apps, but Apple has since completely destroyed that advantage. The iPhone is a pretty locked-down platform, but ironically far more iPhone users use third-party applications than Windows Mobile users, because the App Store is such a well-designed and well-executed storefront. It beats the heck out of Handango and what not, both from a user and a developer standpoint.
The iPhone is easy to use, and more so, it's easy to use to its full potential. As a power user (and former WM user for 4 years), I'm annoyed by many aspects of it, but overall it's actually a superior platform to WM 6.1 in almost every aspect. It's much more stable (even while multitasking, which jailbreaking allows you to do) and faster than any WM phone on the market because the underlying OS is just much better designed. Apple paid attention to details, and it shows in lots of little details- e.g. auto headphone detection and separate volume levels. The UI is fabulous.
With a combination of jailbroken and App Store apps, the iPhone is almost as capable as any WM phone. The only exception is that the file system is still a bit tricky to use, and there are very limited text editing or creation options, but as a read-only device it works very well (much better than any of my WM phones).
As much as Apple's criticized for its unfriendly business models encouraging upgrades every time the device changes, the iPhone is actually much more future-proof than any WM device because Apple provides OS updates, whereas MS screws everyone royally by depending on carriers to provide ROM updates that, even if released, 0.2% of WM users will know how to apply to their phones.
Windows Mobile needs a huge overhaul, and at this point I'd actually advise dropping backwards compatibility with current WM apps and creating an entirely new mobile OS based on a ported NT kernel (WinCE is essentially a small version of Windows 95), with hardware-accelerated graphics. Dropping backwards compatibility will allow MS to create a new GUI that doesn't have to support the legacy 2-soft-button + X/OK button UI that's holding the OS back. And if they can come even close to Apple's App Store setup, they'll be able to rebuild WM's third-party support in no time. If Apple could create such a huge third-party app ecosystem in just some months, there's no reason Microsoft can't. |
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mirekluza
Joined: 25 Nov 2008
Posts: 12
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| Posted: Thu Dec 04, 2008 7:43 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Windows Mobile needs a huge overhaul, and at this point I'd actually advise dropping backwards compatibility with current WM apps.. |
This would be completely wrong in my opinion (dropping the compatibility and basically making a new thing under the old name). And for me it would be the reason to abandon the platform. Actually I think it would kill the platform completely by taking away one of its biggest advantages...
As I already wrote - if I wanted an Iphone I would buy one and not some copy of it...
Many people who talk about the need for other smartphones to be more like Iphone do not realize one thing... What will be then sense in having more platforms?
In that world there would be Iphone from Apple and Iphone like copies from Nokia/Microsoft/RIM/etc. What would be the point having the world full of Iphone copies just with different names?
Personally I buy a phone because of what it does, not because its mark... "Iphone" with a Microsoft WM sticker on it would be just that (and if having to choose I would go for the original).
Anyway - I hope this does not happen... Neither of the WM alternatives (Symbian/Iphone/Android) provides comparable degree of freedom (Symbian has Symbian signed, Apple Iphone store only limitation, Android Java only applications). It is ironic that the "big bad monopolistic Microsoft" now produces the most open mainstream smartphone (I saw one colleague with "do it yourselves" Linux phone kit - definitely even more free than WM - but this is not a mainstream alternative).
Mirek |
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kdarling
Joined: 31 May 2007
Posts: 39
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| Posted: Thu Dec 04, 2008 4:26 pm Post subject: |
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Sorry, but you can't complain about people having to apply WM updates on their own, but then throw in Jailbroken iPhone apps, in the same breath. 
Both require some user action outside of normal. |
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farnold
Joined: 18 Apr 2004
Posts: 31
Location: Sydney, Australia
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| Posted: Thu Dec 04, 2008 4:56 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Source: Needham via Apple Insider (Needham has not published this info in publicly available report). |
Ah, I love good stories with incomplete information and a lot of personal gusto  Shall I share my story where FannyMae and FreddyMac are the dominating players in the property market 
_________________
Cheers
Frank |
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netboy
Joined: 19 Oct 2005
Posts: 349
Location: Bayarea, CA USA
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| Posted: Fri Dec 05, 2008 3:13 am Post subject: |
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I agree with Mirekluza. microsoft should not make windows mobile as a iphone clone! if u want a iphone, go get a iphone! y get a iphone clone from microsoft?
Disney rated G family movies always #1 at theaters! so should all other movie producers stop making action rated R movies and copy disney and make rated G? |
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amb9800
Joined: 02 Aug 2008
Posts: 92
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| Posted: Sat Dec 06, 2008 12:09 am Post subject: |
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| kdarling wrote: | Sorry, but you can't complain about people having to apply WM updates on their own, but then throw in Jailbroken iPhone apps, in the same breath.
Both require some user action outside of normal. |
I'm not equating the two- the point is just to show that despite some limitations, it's essentially just as powerful a platform as WM, and at the device level, still better than most WM phones with similar form factors.
Most Windows Mobile users aren't even aware their phones can run third-party apps. Of the people I know with WM phones, not a single one knew how to get programs for their phone until I loaded them on for them. On the contrary, the only iPhone users I know who don't have third-party apps installed are first-gen iPhone users who haven't yet upgraded the software to 2.x in iTunes.
I would even go so far as to say that there are very likely more jailbroken iPhones (which is a one-button-press operation) than there are Windows Mobile Pro phones using store-bought third-party apps. From what I've seen in both consumer and enterprise WM users, the difference in end-user platform usage is that huge.
WM hasn't been overhauled in years (which has been a complaint for a long time, way before the iPhone and such), and combined with serious usability issues (that don't present an issue for us but do for average users), and a complete failure of marketing (there's no brand awareness at all for Windows Mobile outside business markets), there's a big challenge for Microsoft to meet if it intends to stay in the consumer smartphone market. |
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amb9800
Joined: 02 Aug 2008
Posts: 92
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| Posted: Sat Dec 06, 2008 12:23 am Post subject: |
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| mirekluza wrote: | | Quote: | | Windows Mobile needs a huge overhaul, and at this point I'd actually advise dropping backwards compatibility with current WM apps.. |
This would be completely wrong in my opinion (dropping the compatibility and basically making a new thing under the old name). And for me it would be the reason to abandon the platform. Actually I think it would kill the platform completely by taking away one of its biggest advantages...
...
Anyway - I hope this does not happen... Neither of the WM alternatives (Symbian/Iphone/Android) provides comparable degree of freedom (Symbian has Symbian signed, Apple Iphone store only limitation, Android Java only applications). It is ironic that the "big bad monopolistic Microsoft" now produces the most open mainstream smartphone (I saw one colleague with "do it yourselves" Linux phone kit - definitely even more free than WM - but this is not a mainstream alternative).
Mirek |
See my issue is that too often WinMo power users and people who enjoy the platform's openness, including myself, try to justify MS' lack of development. There's no excuse for having essentially the same desktop-shrunken UI in Windows Mobile 6.1 as there was in Pocket PC 2000. Wouldn't people have an issue if Vista were just a new skin over Windows 95? That's the kind of time scale WM's been on-- it's been a low-priority business unit for Microsoft, and now they have some severe competitive pressures coming.
While I'm skeptical MS would actually screw over all its mobile partners Zune-style and drop WM in favor of its own device, this articles makes some interesting points:
http://www.alleyinsider.com/2008/11/why-microsoft-should-make-its-own-phone-windows-mobile-revenue-stinks-msft-
Also, one thing to keep in mind is that while we often hear the line of there being thousands of apps available for WinMo, the average app is several years old. The average quality of an app in the iPhone's App Store is far higher than average WinMo programs, from usability to functionality, etc. There's just so much market attention on the iPhone platform that every major software company has some sort of involvement in it (except where Apple doesn't want it, e.g. Adobe and Flash...).
Windows Mobile, on the other hand, has stagnated. Looking at all the WinMo and developer forums I keep up with, the majority of the focus is on UI skins / usability-enhancing apps-- I don't see nearly the level of creative efforts that used to go into WinMo development some years ago and which is today visible on the iPhone. Even with its relatively closed platform, the iPhone already has a huge array of amazing apps now, many of which have no WM equivalent. How the tables have turned... |
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Hobo
Joined: 23 Nov 2008
Posts: 169
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| Posted: Sat Dec 06, 2008 12:27 am Post subject: |
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As a WM developer since the beginning with a few best sellers and award winners under my belt, I have recently sold many of my old PPC and WM devices on Ebay, and have taken the plunge with an iPhone and Mac Book Pro. WM is in rapid decline. Given Apple's 70% royalty compared to Handango's 25%, and of course the far superior delivery mechanism, it wont be long before:
1. There are very few notable WM developers left.
2. Apple apps are far superior to WM apps because they generate more income so the dev can spend more on development.
3. Existing WM apps stagnate. Why update them for no reward?
4. WM becomes just a niche market for businesses ...
In addition, the iPhone dev kit is FREE, beta testers are plentiful, and Apple are bubbling with enthusiasm for their creation. WM has been in the doldrums for years with little development and countless devices with samey specs and slow processors.
The App Store may save it but my guess is any App Store will ... link to Handango! |
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mirekluza
Joined: 25 Nov 2008
Posts: 12
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| Posted: Sat Dec 06, 2008 11:39 am Post subject: |
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| Hobo wrote: | | WM is in rapid decline. |
Strange that nobody in HTC has noticed... (they have just recently written that they will exceed their plans in selling HTC Diamond for this year).
There are also some other interesting devices (like Asus communicator with 800 Mhz processor, Samsung Omnia etc.).
How is that possible? According to Iphone people the WM horse they are riding is completely dead...
The problem is that Iphone fans are not prepared to co-exist with other platforms, in their opinion the Iphone (or Iphone clones) must take over the world...
Yes, some WM (and Symbian) developers are in bad situation because of piracy level, but that does not mean decline of WM... Absolute numbers are always going up...
| Hobo wrote: |
In addition, the iPhone dev kit is FREE, beta testers are plentiful, and Apple are bubbling with enthusiasm for their creation.
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"Apple enthusiasm" lasts only as long as you do not develope something they do not like. There are documented cases of some very usefull applications blocked by Apple: Opera Mini (nobody is allowed to compete with Safari), StyleTap (Palm emulator - Apple expressly forbids any emulators, script engines etc. which could be used to produce programs), Java (the same as above), Flash (probably the same as above, plus Apple argues it is too resource demanding).
All of the applications were either already made (Opera Mini, StyleTap) or they could be easily produced (Java, Flash), but they are blocked from Iphone store (the only officiall distribution channel).
So the developers are left out - programming for jailbreaked Iphones is not a business option (only minority of technically knowledgable users will give up warranty for freedom).
Good for companies writing games - Apple will not block them and the Iphone store will limit piracy... A lot of money can be earned by selling games to masses, but otherwise awfull...
I though that Symbian Signed was the worst thing, till Apple came with its "big brother" concept (we know better than you what you can use...).
Mirek |
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Hobo
Joined: 23 Nov 2008
Posts: 169
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| Posted: Sat Dec 06, 2008 3:25 pm Post subject: |
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| mirekluza wrote: |
Strange that nobody in HTC has noticed... (they have just recently written that they will exceed their plans in selling HTC Diamond for this year).
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If you plan to sell 1 and you sell 2 then you have exceeded your plans. Dell noticed. They discontinued all their WM devices. Microgistix/HP noticed - the collapse in iPaqChoice revenue caused Microgistix to go bust owing devs like me 5 figure sums. Many other manufacturers have also left the market. HTC are diversifying into other OS platforms such as Android. Handango have noticed - they now charge an average of 75% commission compared to 20% when they started, and despite this they are still losing money.
| mirekluza wrote: |
There are also some other interesting devices (like Asus communicator with 800 Mhz processor, Samsung Omnia etc.).
How is that possible? |
An app running on an 800 Mhz Samsung is slower than a similar app on the iPhone. How is that possible? My experience is that my WM devices would need to be many Ghz to keep up with the iPhone.
The Omnia looks great but much of the software already out there will not display properly. As for the Xperia, barely any developers have decided to take them up on their offer of developing panels for it and again many titles don't work properly with its screen.
Note that all these new devices have new front ends to the OS because nobody likes the one that WM comes with. The only prob is that as soon as you delve down a layer, you are back to the clumsy old fashioned WM OS.
| mirekluza wrote: |
According to Iphone people the WM horse they are riding is completely dead...
How is that possible? |
Not completely dead. Like I said, I have been writing WM apps since day one. However PPC/WM has had little commitment or enthusiasm from microsoft for many years now and I'd say WM is showing a pulse at best.
| mirekluza wrote: |
Yes, some WM (and Symbian) developers are in bad situation because of piracy level, but that does not mean decline of WM... Absolute numbers are always going up...
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And sadly MS don't give a monkeys. I have been notifying them of the biggest piracy distributors for years now and those sites are still there. Piracy is another reason why it is pointless writing commercial software for WM. Sure, a few developers get lucky, but the vast majority earn next to nothing. People are prepared to pay $1 for an app with instant on device purchaing. But $20 to $30 for a WM app when you can get it for nothing ...
| mirekluza wrote: |
"Apple enthusiasm" lasts only as long as you do not develope something they do not like.
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Agreed although there are some plain daft instances of developers creating apps that compete with Apple's even tho' they know Apple's stance. It isn't so hard to create non conflicting apps.
| mirekluza wrote: |
I though that Symbian Signed was the worst thing, till Apple came with its "big brother" concept (we know better than you what you can use...).
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WM's Mobile2Market signing/certifying is even worse. You certify your apps which must conform to some horribly archaic UI constraints, then you sign your code using your dongle etc all via a third party. Finally after much expense, your app gets listed in the Mobile2Market catalogue ... and that's that. You likely wont hear anything again. The Mobile2Market catalogue doesn't generate any sales as far as I can tell.
Apple sign your apps for FREE. That is a saving of $800 per app minimum (WM fees are $400 for WM Classic/Professional then $400 more for Standard). Bear in mind that most WM apps never make $800 gross anyway.
PDAMill have just released all their WM apps on iPhone ... at around $1 each compared to $20 odd each for WM. When all us developers do this then it will surely be the beginning of the end for WM. No format has ever survived without the latest and greatest software ... give us an App Store now before it is too late ;0) |
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mirekluza
Joined: 25 Nov 2008
Posts: 12
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| Posted: Sat Dec 06, 2008 9:47 pm Post subject: |
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Well, reading the previous I had already prepared myself a lot of arguments what is wrong in that mail and generally bad about Iphone/Apple..., but then I realized that it would lead nowhere...
It is like endless browser wars or Linux/Windows arguments - long pointless debates where neither side persuades another.
It would be nice if all sides stopped trying to evangelize others. I will not bother Iphone people with my opinion about their phone (not a nice one) and I would appreciate if Iphone people did the same in relation to WM/Symbian/Android...
Everyone can vote by buying what he likes or by making programs for his favourite platform, rather than trying to persuade others that only his/her favourite is the future (and everything else is crap).
What deserves to survive will survive even without any flamewars. And what does not deserve to survive will die regardless of what its fans think about it.
Mirek |
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israel_id
Joined: 12 Aug 2004
Posts: 10
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| Posted: Sat Dec 06, 2008 10:50 pm Post subject: |
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I would love to move to the Iphone if
1..there were a few Gps appliactions for it(tomto, Igo, Copilot etc)
2..can play divx,wmv, flac
3..send things via bluetooth |
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