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dicussions about Microsoft Smartphone and Pocket PC phone
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msmobiles.com_robot
Joined: 23 Mar 2004
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 Posted: Wed Sep 16, 2009 6:18 pm Post subject: Zune HD sold out already and it will be big success - sign of things to come for Windows Mobile? |
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Zune HD went on sale merely yesterday (but only in USA, while 3rd world countries, i.e. non-USA territories, must wait till 2010). However already now it is apparent that Zune HD will be big success! Why Zune HD wil...
Read more at http://www.msmobiles.com/news.php/8594.html |
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joemboule
Joined: 15 Jul 2008
Posts: 16
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| Posted: Thu Sep 17, 2009 2:39 am Post subject: |
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"Zune HD went on sale merely yesterday (but only in USA, while 3rd world countries, i.e. non-USA territories, must wait till 2010)"
Do you mean all countries outside USA are 3rd world? Please explain better! |
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EJR
Joined: 18 Mar 2004
Posts: 2679
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| Posted: Thu Sep 17, 2009 4:21 am Post subject: |
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| joemboule wrote: |
Do you mean all countries outside USA are 3rd world? Please explain better! |
No, I don't mean that, but Microsoft's Zune division does because they delayed release of Zune HD outside of USA to 2010. |
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virain
Joined: 23 Dec 2007
Posts: 124
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| Posted: Thu Sep 17, 2009 2:13 pm Post subject: |
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| Edward!? You actually said a nice thing about Microsoft product for the first time in many years!!! Do you feel O'K? |
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kieranEire
Joined: 12 Oct 2005
Posts: 318
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| Posted: Thu Sep 17, 2009 2:35 pm Post subject: |
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I will wait till I see the Zune HD in reality as I have read some worrying statistics about the javascript execution speeds and that the screen is like a mirror making it very difficult to read especially outside.
Sunspider Javascript Benchmark (in Milliseconds):
Zune HD: 184,356
iPhone 3GS: 15,082
View Appleinsiders view of the Zune HD.
http://www.appleinsider.com/articles/09/09/14/from_oled_to_tegra_five_myths_of_the_zune_hd.html |
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j2inet
Joined: 06 May 2009
Posts: 155
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| Posted: Thu Sep 17, 2009 4:27 pm Post subject: |
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| kieranEire wrote: | | I will wait till I see the Zune HD in reality as I have read some worrying statistics about the javascript execution speeds and that the screen is like a mirror making it very difficult to read especially outside. l |
Now that you mention it looking ath the ZuneHD and iPhone 3G side by side the ZuneHD does have a more reflective screen. I was filming something from the ZuneHD earlier and looking back on the video you can see the glare from the ceiling light 50 seconds into the video. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T0O4DIey_WI
Can't say this concerns me any. For me "outside" is just the space between the places where I want to be, so the only time I use a Zune outside is when I am in a car heading to my next destination.
_________________
- Joel
Last edited by j2inet on Thu Sep 17, 2009 6:56 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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znmeb
Joined: 17 Sep 2009
Posts: 1
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| Posted: Thu Sep 17, 2009 6:07 pm Post subject: Zune HD vs. iPod Touch |
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Yeah, the Zune HDs are sold out at a lot of places. I had one on pre-order at Amazon but decided to cancel when Apple announced the next round of iPod Touch models. I was concerned because Apple had a lot of detail on the browser on their web site and all Microsoft said was, "We have a browser".
I went to a Best Buy yesterday to compare them side-by-side. I couldn't get a test of the browser there -- no WiFi -- so I left without buying one. In any event, I decided to go with the HD, mostly because of the HD Radio and the HD Video out. I've got two Zunes already and love them, so the natural inclination was to stick with them. There isn't an app development kit, but there *is* a game development kit and for what I want to do with it that will work just fine.
Meanwhile, Best Buy has sold out of them, Amazon went from "shipping September 18" to "one to three weeks", and quite a few other places have sold out. As of an hour ago, NewEgg still had the 32 GB ones but has sold out of the 16s. I'm guessing pretty much every reputable on line vendor will be sold out by the end of today. |
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j2inet
Joined: 06 May 2009
Posts: 155
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| Posted: Thu Sep 17, 2009 6:16 pm Post subject: Re: Zune HD vs. iPod Touch |
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| znmeb wrote: | There isn't an app development kit, but there *is* a game development kit and for what I want to do with it that will work just fine.
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I agree. I can't think of t many casual applications that I wouldn't be able to make using XNA.
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Menneisyys
Joined: 28 Apr 2008
Posts: 192
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kieranEire
Joined: 12 Oct 2005
Posts: 318
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| Posted: Fri Sep 18, 2009 1:11 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Well, I myself have nothing against Apple (nor do I have against WinMo ), but this article is full of half-truths. For example, when it comes to OLED screens, the author fails to mention it takes years for the screen to start getting worse |
This is simply incorrect. The blue OLED fully degrades in around 5000 hours. While considering screen on time of a few hours a day this will last for the lifetime of the device. However degradation starts immediately and as it works on a half life basis means initial degradation is rapid. As different coloured OLEDS degrade at different rates the quality of image while certainly suffer.
see
http://www.mrs.org/s_mrs/bin.asp?CID=2734&DID=149167&DOC=FILE.PDF
What are you saying here I should buy a Zune HD over the ipod competitor because its screen performs better than a TyTN 2 in direct sunlight. I think the point the article made is the ipods screen outperforms the Zunes in direct sunlight. None of these points are half truths at all . |
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Menneisyys
Joined: 28 Apr 2008
Posts: 192
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| Posted: Sun Sep 20, 2009 9:44 pm Post subject: |
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| kieranEire wrote: | | What are you saying here I should buy a Zune HD over the ipod competitor because its screen performs better than a TyTN 2 in direct sunlight. I think the point the article made is the ipods screen outperforms the Zunes in direct sunlight. None of these points are half truths at all . |
1. Yes, the iPhine / iPod screens do outperform that of the Zune in bright sunlight (but definitely NOT in well-lit areas - there are a lot of links in the comments section that link to Zune demos in well-lit rooms - as opposed to the "candle-lit" lie (“Microsoft knows this, which is why it only demonstrates the Zune HD in dark rooms.”) of the original article). An example (taken from http://forums.appleinsider.com/showpost.php?p=1482170&postcount=115 ):
This speaks for itself, doesn’t it?
Also take a look at http://forums.appleinsider.com/showthread.php?t=101645 . The original author of the article, when reporting on the iTablet’s receiving an OLED screen, doesn’t explain OLED sucks. (Because it doesn’t – otherwise, Nokia and Samsung wouldn’t have switched to it in some of their latest handsets.) NONE in the comment section calls OLED a bad technology – on the contrary, while some do call it too expensive at this (~10”) size, others call it just great (see e.g. http://forums.appleinsider.com/showpost.php?p=1464886&postcount=68 and http://forums.appleinsider.com/showpost.php?p=1464738&postcount=7 ). It’s very funny the same people applause Apple for wanting to put OLED in the iTablet and, then, later, when they discuss the Zune HD, they state the opposite and trash OLED...
However, unless you play games or watch videos in bright sunlight, being washed out isn't really an issue. As the Zune / iPod Touch doesn't have a cellular radio, you'll hardly want to use it outdoors for e.g. Web browsing. At least based on my(!) usage of my iPhone 3G and 3G S, I browse the Web 90-95% of the time while outdoors and only watch videos / play games in the remaining 5-10%.(Others’ mileage may vary, of course.)
(Note that the AAS article I linked to failed to mention the non-touchscreen Blackberries have an even better screen than that of the iPhone when it comes to outdoor visibility.)
2. I don't want to make people buy a Zune - I just wanted to point out one hmmm... how should I put it.... "exaggeration" of the original article. And there are still a lot of them. For example, the guy states "Given its (WinCE) dismal performance in the market over the last decade, that reputation is well earned." The guy definitely doesn’t have a clue on what he’s talking about. What caused the death of Palm OS? WinCE (Windows Mobile). What was the fiercest competition to Nokia’s Symbian? WinCE (Windows Mobile). What was the most important and popular non-connected (!) mobile OS between, say, 2003 and 2006? WinMo. I know this has since changed as the iPhone OS has taken the marked by a storm, thanks to both the excellent hardware (which – thanks to, among other things, the capacitive touchscreen – also made me switch from WinMo to the iPhone as my main Internet / connected device) and GREAT third party software (particularly games, which WinMo can’t really dream about) support. I also know the Blackberry is also better than WinMo (or the iPhone) in some (but not all!) respects – I wouldn’t in any way do my push e-mail stuff on my WinMo phones, let alone the iPhone, which, then, would have a REALLY dismal battery life. With push e-mail always active on my BB 8800, I generally have a battery life of a week (!).
3. let me continue with another statement:
“A good quality LCD actually uses ambient light to make its image brighter and more vibrant”
This is plain false. I’ve never seen a color LCD screen that became better in strong ambient light. There isn’t any way of ambient light making it “brighter” and, particularly, “more vibrant”. (Unless the backlight is totally *** up – like on the Palm M505, or, to some lesser degree, in the Toshi e740 –, that is. Then, this statement would be right. Too bad it simply isn’t the case with the vast majority of handhelds / sets manufactured in the last, say, 6-7 years.) How could one make a color “more vibrant” with additional, external light? Physically impossible. (Again, assuming the backlight is, more or less, even. Which is the case in almost all handsets manufactured in the last half decade at least.)
4. “This means when you take it outside, the OLED's screen is completely washed out by sunlight.” I don’t know what they meant by “completely”. If you look at the AAS screenshots (http://www.allaboutsymbian.com/features/item/Sun_sun_sun_And_I_cant_see_a_thing_on_my_phone.php ), you’ll see that you can still see the icons on the OLED screen. It’s in no way “completely washed out”. The author of the article hasn’t ever used a transmissive LCD (for example, the one in the Jornada 680/720 (STN) or the Casio Cassiopeias (transmissive TFT)). These screens are the ones that are “completely washed out” – but not the OLED screens.
5. “However, today's OLED panels are much dimmer than standard issue LCDs: a typical maximum output of 200cd/m^2 compared to around 4-500 for mid-range LCDs.” and other statements the iPod / iPhone screens are superior to that of the Zune HD:
Unfortunately, the iPhone / iPod screens aren’t the best. The screen of the 3G S is even worse than that of the 3G – see my comparative shots at http://www.iphonelife.com/blog/87/something-you-won’t-find-other-iphone-3g-s-reviews-tons-3g-s-benchmarks-and . (This has been acknowledged by a lot of other 3G S users too.) That is, even if TFT screens can (theoretically – again, I pretty much doubt this, having seen those user shots of OLED screens) be better than OLED screens, the iPhone screen certainly doesn’t belong to the “crème de crème” class of the TFT screens. Again, based on what I’ve seen on shots, the Zune HD screen seems to be much more vibrant than the 3G S screen. I’m not sure about the Zune HD vs. iPhone 2G / 3G situation, though – again, the 3G S has a worse screen than previous iPhone models. |
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kieranEire
Joined: 12 Oct 2005
Posts: 318
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| Posted: Mon Sep 21, 2009 10:41 am Post subject: |
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First Nokia nor Samsung have switched to OLED screens, they switched to AMOLED screens. This is a a series of OLEDs embed into at leaset 2 TFT layers. Its the TFT layers that provide protection from reflections and improve performance in direct sunlight. The advantage of OLED screens is that they are not back lit. This means black pixels require no power what so ever. This is why the Zune HD has a black background with white text. While this sounds a smart move the lack of colour and mainly black screen just adds to the reflective problems with the screen, creating a mirror effect much like the new glass screens on iMacs. White on black also lowers the performance of the screen in direct sunlight.
| Quote: | | how should I put it.... "exaggeration" of the original article. And there are still a lot of them. For example, the guy states "Given its (WinCE) dismal performance in the market over the last decade, that reputation is well earned." |
But the figures support their point. Last quarter WM lost another 2.9% market share meaning Microsoft are less than half of their predicted growth for 2012. They are losing to Blackberry in the enterprise market and iPhone in the consumer market.
http://arstechnica.com/microsoft/news/2009/08/windows-mobile-loses-27-of-smartphone-market-in-q2.ars
| Quote: | “A good quality LCD actually uses ambient light to make its image brighter and more vibrant”
This is plain false. I’ve never seen a color LCD screen that became better in strong ambient light. |
You are being misleading here, the article at no point says a screen should perform better in strong ambient light than with no or little light. Its says the screen should use ambient light somehow to improve its performance. The best way to explain this is the iPhone/iPod screen has a reflective layer that reflects direct sunlight making the screen clearer and more vibrant in those conditions.
| Quote: | | Unfortunately, the iPhone / iPod screens aren’t the best. The screen of the 3G S is even worse than that of the 3G |
So iphone/iPod screens are not the best because the 3gs screen is worse than the 3G. You are aware the 3G is an iphone! |
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Menneisyys
Joined: 28 Apr 2008
Posts: 192
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| Posted: Tue Sep 22, 2009 2:10 pm Post subject: |
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| kieranEire wrote: | | This is why the Zune HD has a black background with white text. |
The Zune has always had this color scheme - way before the HD. Of course, with the introduction of HD, it's pretty much understandable they've sticked with this tradition.
I don't debate WinMo is in a very bad situation now. What I meant was this wasn't always so. It was WinMo that killed Palm OS on the non-connected mobile handheld platforms. It used to be far more popular, with far more apps and, particularly, games.
Back in the "good old" days on WinMo, I used to write sometimes two software reviews a day. Now? Far-far more rarely. The reason? Far fewer releases. Everybody seems to have switched to iPhone.
| Quote: | | You are being misleading here, the article at no point says a screen should perform better in strong ambient light than with no or little light. Its says the screen should use ambient light somehow to improve its performance. The best way to explain this is the iPhone/iPod screen has a reflective layer that reflects direct sunlight making the screen clearer and more vibrant in those conditions. |
Show me one phone / PDA where this is the case. I haven't seen any. At least when WinMo handhelds / handsets are concerned. And the iPhone too. With at least a semi-decent backlight, watching these devices in almost total darkness delivers the best quality.
| Quote: | | So iphone/iPod screens are not the best because the 3gs screen is worse than the 3G. You are aware the 3G is an iphone! |
It is. Nevertheless, it's not the current model any more. While the 3G S is a pleasant surprise, the lower-quality screen is quite a letdown. Its color reproduction can in no way come close to those of (AM)OLED screens - not even that of the iPhone 3G.
That is, the author's claiming Apple's having the best screen ever is, to put it mildly, far from the truth. |
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Menneisyys
Joined: 28 Apr 2008
Posts: 192
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| Posted: Tue Sep 22, 2009 9:13 pm Post subject: |
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| posted a link to this thread / discussion onto several WinMo boards & the PPCMag blog. |
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kieranEire
Joined: 12 Oct 2005
Posts: 318
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| Posted: Wed Sep 23, 2009 10:30 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | The Zune has always had this color scheme - way before the HD. Of course, with the introduction of HD, it's pretty much understandable they've sticked with this tradition. |
No it didn't, it had white text on a dark background not pure black like the Zune HD. The pure black is the key to improving battery life performance. Mine had a washed out background similar to the HTC Heros default but much darker.
| Quote: | | I don't debate WinMo is in a very bad situation now. What I meant was this wasn't always so. |
But then the article was right saying that windows mobile is on a downward trend.
| Quote: | | Show me one phone / PDA where this is the case. I haven't seen any. At least when WinMo handhelds / handsets are concerned. And the iPhone too. With at least a semi-decent backlight, watching these devices in almost total darkness delivers the best quality. |
Read my point again, you are misinterpreting what the article said. The article at no point says a screen should perform better in strong ambient light than with no or little light.
Its says the screen should use ambient light somehow to improve its performance. The best way to explain this is the iPhone/iPod screen has a reflective layer that reflects ambient making the screen clearer and more vibrant in those conditions.
| Quote: | | It is. Nevertheless, it's not the current model any more. While the 3G S is a pleasant surprise, the lower-quality screen is quite a letdown. Its color reproduction can in no way come close to those of (AM)OLED screens - not even that of the iPhone 3G. |
lol, but you cannot back up the claim that the ipod/iphone screens colour reproduction cannot come close to the Zune HD. Yet how is this the case, they can display the same amount of colours yet the Zune HD UI is mainly black and white. The Zune HD's OLEDs are at least half as dim as the ipods/iphones LEDS, the screen has a huge mirror effect and no finger print repealant at all. Its outdoor performance is especially poor. The Zune HDs screen will begin to degrade rapidly as soon as you turn it on. Comparing OLED against LED is not the same thing as comparing the ipod/iphone screens to the Zune HD. The reflective display uses ambient light to improve performance of the LEDS (twice as bright) and the colourful bright UI make it stand out.
As the article says there is a reason why Apple did not jump onto the OLED craze.
| Quote: | | That is, the author's claiming Apple's having the best screen ever is, to put it mildly, far from the truth. |
No the author says Apples screen is better than the Zune HD and they have clearly backed it up with fact. Its twice as bright, uses ambient light to improve performance, repeals fingerprints, is usable in direct sunlight across many lighting and environmental issues. The iphone screen not just beats but trounces that on the Zune HD. |
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), but this article is full of half-truths. For example, when it comes to OLED screens, the author fails to mention it takes years for the screen to start getting worse - long after you abandon it and get a better device. Also, while the current OLED screens are very hard to see outdoors (see e.g. 